Curse

Yichi · Apr 10, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by UndeadRoadkill

They're Taiwanese, I really wouldn't be surprised if they were Buddhists.

actually they arent. just had a taiwaneese guy create the guild

Lady Lozza · Apr 10, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

No I see your point perfectly well, despite the fact that it was used in a number of cases, in the equalateral position, it was still more common in the rotated position - which is what people like myself associate with the Nazis.
Nonetheless it was NEVER shown in the anti-clockwise direction, the point YOU seem to be missing completely. As I understand it, the clockwise version IS banned in GW.

Should Anet ban the letters X and Y because they are often use to represent gender? X also represents no, and wrong, Y also represts yes - therefore X and Y are symbols of sexual descrimination. You, no doubt, find this ridiculous - as do I. Think about what the Taiwanese must think about this - a whole symbol banned because of an event they had NO part in and NO control over.

What we are talking about here is a whole language. They have already banned one symbol, banning the other may very well limit their vocabulary in game. I, for one, have no idea how common either symbol is the Taiwanese. Nonetheless since the anti-clockwise swastika was NEVER used by the Nazis I don't see the problem. Those who have a problem with the one allowed symbol need re-education. Those who say these things should be left in the past no matter what need to realise that ignoring the past doesn't make it go away. If the past is fogotten, no matter how horrible it was, we are just going to allow ourselves to make the same mistake over and over again. The past should NOT be forgotten, but remembered as a lesson we have already learnt.

There are plenty of examples in history of horrible events where certain symbols have been associated with them. Those symbols have not been banned from our society, some are even seen as a badge of honour. However they have not faded from history text, no matter how much it has been glossed over, and those symbols are now no longer viewed (on a whole) with fear.

UndeadRoadkill · Apr 10, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

actually they arent. just had a taiwaneese guy create the guild

Well, until someone confirms that those characters translate to 'Hitler is teh sex' or something, I think my point is still valid. I don't know why someone would automatically assume that nobody playing Guild Wars is a Buddhist, and therefore couldn't possibly be using the symbol as anything but a Nazi emblem.

Tainek · Apr 10, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

BS. They are both swastikas, they even mean the same thing originally (sun symbol), it's just not identical in looks to the one adopted by the nazis. Both types go waaaaay back, to pre-buddhist pre-christian probably even pre-hindu roots. That's why the nazis used it, it was seen as a symbol of the original "aryan" people they believed they were the pure descendants of.

But the origin doesn't really matter. What does matter is that that will be seen as a nazi symbol by pretty much every westerner who sees it, will be USED as a nazi symbol in the game by asshats who think nazism is "cool and evol". You don't think these guys are using it in their names/guild tags as a symbol of their Hindu faith, do you?

It should not be a legal character of the game.

And if they use it as this, then we laugh and know it doesnt Symbolize The nazi's , but protection and peace and all that

Im sorry, but you cannot justify Removing a religeous symbol just because it looks kinda like that other symbol that we dont like...

As for a lawsuit, the parent would be laughed out of the courtroom, its not illegal to display a Manjii, and that is clearly what it is

oh, and anyone who thinks that a Swastika and WW2 Should be left in the past is an Idiot plain and simple, is studying and learning about how it happened not more important than covering your countrys shame last centurty? next time this starts to happen, i'd like people to be seeing the similaritys, and crying out, not repeating what happened

Sekkira · Apr 10, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

It's understandable that the Japanes and Germans don't want to remember that section of history.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

@Numa.... do you live here? I mean in germany... If not, shut the hell up. I said that in poland bad things would happen if you wore a SS uniform, and if you read my post, youd see that in germany youd most likely find yourself in jail with a giant fine. People here are not going to jump you and beat your sorry butt for wearing that stuff. They know what it means, well older people do, and they know its illegal. Granted I am speaking for the province Im in, but Ive seen people with swastikas tattooed on their backs or arms... nobody cares. And seeing a person dressed in SS garb wouldnt be the first time for me.

Tainek · Apr 10, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

It's understandable that the Japanes and Germans don't want to remember that section of history.

im sure they dont, but once again, its more important to learn from your mistakes, than to sweep them under the rug, and make the same mistake later

Edit: for example, look at the middle ages, living in england, i know my people were barbarians (and heck, ive got austrian blood in me that leads back to viking roots) , i dont feel guilty, i had no part, or ashamed for the same reason, but i can learn from it all

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

OMG Tainek.... you are so right. Ive been saying that to my german friends for years. Some of them agree, others just laugh at me.

Sekkira · Apr 10, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Oh of course, but I doubt either of you were around or if you were, old enough to understand what was going on during the time. THOSE are the ones that have every right to want to forget.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I know what was going on then... Thats why I question this whole remove that symbol topic. The nazis movement isnt something everbody understands. Not too many people have had the chance to talk to the people I have and learn what I did, since I live here.

Numa Pompilius · Apr 10, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordMahal

@Numa.... do you live here? I mean in germany...

I live in Sweden, have been to Germany, and speak German.

Quote:

If not, shut the hell up.

Please don't make me think you're a nazi. It depresses me to think that there's people who still haven't figured out how failed and deluded nazism was.

There's only two reasons to be nazi or display swastikas in europe today:
1) You're a retard and think you're being cool and evil.
2) You're confused about how to show disagreement with the volume of immigration. While the volume of immigration may be a problem, it has nothing to do with nazism.

As for the point that the swastika is a buddhist & hindu symbol. Yes, it is. One of very many. It is not comparable to the cross in christianity.

EDIT: And even if it was, I'm not sure it'd have a place in a game like Guildwars.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Nazism still exists in germany... its even in the government.

And Im not a Nazi.... I just dont think people understand what they set out to do. All most see is mass killing... and of course I dont blame them, that was not the nicest thing to do.

Kabale · Apr 10, 2006, 10:50 AM // 10:50

When a guild decides to get some Taiwaneese guy to make their tag, you can pretty much rest assured that their intentions were to cause controversy thus gaining attention of the masses, which is what 90% of HA players do. They sure succeeded.

I find it somewhat offensive since I know what these people are trying to achieve. If I knew it was a 'legit' Taiwaneese guild then I wouldn't be offended by it, but then again, as was said before, the option to do it is there so they did it, and there's no way to tell the intentions behind why people would use it.

Numa Pompilius · Apr 10, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

1) No, there's no nazi party in government. Yes, nazism (mainly as confused opposition to immigration) still exists, but you know what happens when they go on their little dress-up marches, right?

2) As an ideology, nazism has been considered a variant of communism, with "race theory" tacked on. They set out to recreate Hitlers romantic idea of a pure "arian race", as defined by a confused philosophy based around a mistaken concept of 'race' ("Arian" is not a race, it's an ancient people from northern India; "Jew" is not a race, it's a religion; neither is communist or homosexual either race or hereditary). They were going to achieve this by enslaving and ultimately exterminating all other peoples in the world.
The nazi government was also thoroughly corrupt; bribery and nepotism was basically how it operated, and there was no independent judicial system, nor any free press.

Nazism and communism are equally stupid ideologies, and it's beyond me how anyone can have any belief in either.

EDIT; and yes, I find the hammer and the sickle offensive too.

Lexar · Apr 10, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Didn't Anet round up a guild in the early days of GW because they all had names of nazi officers and generals and pretended to be the SS? I can see how a symbol like this is going to be abused.

Also, if far less potentially insulting names aren't allowed in the character creation shouldn't this symbol be preventively turned off as well?

Obviously there's other meanings to many curses like gay or RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO or whatever, but if it is insulting to just a few people, it's not allowed. And for good reason. The swastica, however, is majorly insulting to a great many people, even if it's not the exact same one as the nazi symbol, so logically it shouldn't be in the game.

EDIT: doh! I got gored engine'D trying to make a point

Anyway it's an other word for rooster that I meant.

LordMahal · Apr 10, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

A nazi based party ran against Schroder in 2002 or 2001, cant rememeber. They, and all other parties of course lost, but the running part really bought them a lot of air time. They are still here, but not strong enough politically to do anything.

@Lexar... even if that symbol is part of your language, heritage, or religeon?

myword · Apr 10, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Yes. Because it's not being used as a religious symbol, it's being used as a symbol of nazism. They just don't understand what that actually means, they just think they're cool and evil.

Nej, är du bra på svenska, ditt jävla pucko?
It doesn't matter, does it.

what? i'm trying not to be condescending so i'll just assume in your haste to reply you missed the glaring point.

why are you assuming that they are referencing the Nazi swastika when you obviously have no clue about the guild's name in the first place? you're taking the symbol out of context.

i think you should let the Taiwanese side of ANet (NCSoft?) handle that, to discern whether the guild is referencing the Nazi swastika or the non-offensive one, instead of cluelessly accusing people and looking foolish in the process.

Xenrath · Apr 10, 2006, 11:15 AM // 11:15

You know, there are far more Hindus and Buddhists in the world than Nazis (thankfully). It would be really dumb to try to ban/sue over something like this just because some fascists had a warped version of it for some propoganda. Don't give in to the ignorant.

josh axiom · Apr 10, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Perhaps I can break this down into something more easily accessible to the average person... I'm Jewish, and every time I see the symbol (forwards or backwards, i don't care), my blood pressure raises and I am instantly uncomfortable and uneasy. The holocaust was the lowest point in all of human history, and is commemorated largely through the use of this symbol. I've put up with a lot of biggotry, hatred, and ignorance in my life, simply because on my religion, so perhaps that's enough of a reason to be unhappy about this symbol suddenly becoming prevalant in the game I play? Did it originate as a symbol that meant something wholly different? Yes, of course it did. Does that change anything? Not really, it's still a painful reminder.

I don't care about it being banned, I don't care if people using it get any sort of punishment, I would just hope that people will choose not to use it in the first place. Try to have some compassion for the people who have had to live with anti-semitism all of their lives, and re-think your notion of e-cool because you're using a Buddhist symbol. True peace, intelligence, and strength have a lot more to do with learning and empathizing with the world around you than anything else - perhaps this can be a lesson to you about the nature of what that symbol used to mean.

Big_Iron · Apr 10, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Those arent swasticas. Go buy an education.

Ironic that someone would make such a comment when they can't even spell the word.